Lily Walford on Avoiding Dating Narcissists, Breaking Codependency, and Creating Healthy Relationships
In this episode we find out if your ex was really a narcissist. Learn how to avoid dating narcissists. And if you find yourself on a date with one, how to spot them, and most importantly how to end the relationship or exchange safely. We’ll talk about breaking codependency and setting boundaries. Is that guy really unavailable or perhaps does he just not feel compatible with you? We dive deep into all things dating and relationships. This is a fascinating episode no matter if you’re single, dating, or married.
IN THIS EPISODE:
- *What makes someone a true narcissist?
- *How to tell if you’re in a healthy relationship
- *How to safely end a relationship with a narcissist
- *Women with codependency and dating
- *How to set boundaries in relationships
- *Women who repeat the same relationship issues over and over
- *Are most men really unavailable, or is it a go-to women say when a man doesn’t want to be with them?
- *How to tell if your date is lying to you
- *Should a woman move in with a man before marriage?
- *and so much more!
OUR GUEST LILY WALFORD
Lily Walford is a BehavioralProfiler, Hypnotist, Life Coach, NLP Master Practitioner & Trainer, SpecializingIn Relationships.
As an international dating coach, she focuses on how busy professionals can date safely and successfully. Despite the relationship and dating industry focusing on manipulation techniques, scripts and dating apps that often create short term and superficial relationships.
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Podcast Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Kat Khatibi: Hi, Lily. Thank you so much for being with us here today.
[00:00:04] Lily Walford: Thank you for having me.
[00:00:07] Kat Khatibi: Tell us a little bit about your journey and how you became a dating coach.
[00:00:12] Lily Walford: Yeah. So originally I was actually an accountant working in a corporate world. And when through one of those life changing breakups, one of those moments where it’s okay, I really want to understand myself, understand what a healthy relationship is.
[00:00:29] I want to recreate my life that kind of big changing moment. And gosh, I ended up moving house, moving cities, moving jobs, literally everything changed. And during all that change, I ended up finding something called NLP, which was outsi. Fantastic. So that’s, neuro-linguistic programming and it’s a way of communicating to the subconscious and I thought this was absolutely amazing when I found it. Mainly because I used to have this major addiction to chocolate, every single day I would happily have a chocolate bar of my lunch and everything. It’d be one of those things I’d have to have. And within 10 minutes of them chatting to us first about NLP, I didn’t want chocolate.
[00:01:17] So I just knew that there was something amazing around working with the subconscious it’s so powerful. I wanted to see what we could actually do with it in terms of developing your mind in terms of breaking any limiting beliefs, removing older past emotions, all these different things. So it led me down this journey of going into NLP life coaching hypnotherapy.
[00:01:42] But there was something within that journey of trying to understand what a healthy relationship is and how to get. It made me realize that self confidence, self worth, all those different things. Weren’t quite enough. And they’re brilliant. But when you have things like, for example, a confident sheep and a Wolf steps in the wolf’s not going to go, oh, that sheep’s got great confidence. I’m going to leave it alone. The Wolf’s going to go, no, I’m a Wolf. I’m going to go and eat the sheep. And it’s the same with people like narcissists and those kinds of predatory toxic characters that can enter people’s lives.
[00:02:18] And this is when I actually went into something called behavioral profiling. I met someone called Chase Hughes. He’s a world leader in behavioral profiling has about $30 million worth of government backed research, has trained CIA level intelligence to two and a half thousand people within the military.
[00:02:37] Really interesting guy. We brought in all this information from him to be able to help her clients read people. Then six minutes or less. And also to take PM at tech lines better than a live detect machine. So people can date safely and successfully and see the truth. Which is sad. It just makes life a little bit more easier when it comes to actually meeting the one.
[00:03:00] Kat Khatibi: That’s so interesting. I love your journey. I’m so nowadays I’ve heard all my friends calling all their exes narcissists. Is that really true are 90% of men narcissist ?
[00:03:15] Lily Walford: oh yeah. I love that. I think narcissists has become such a buzzword. Hasn’t it? It’s like one of those where it’s okay, someone loves themselves.
[00:03:25] Great. They’re a narcissist. When I’m talking about narcissist, I genuinely mean a true narcissist. So a true narcissist, the empathy part of the brain is actually underdeveloped and that’s been scientifically proven. So when you’re actually talking about a true narcissist as someone who’s unable to feel empathy for another person.
[00:03:46] And what that does is it cools as these manipulative traits to come out. So these people tend to always find an empath and go, oh, great. What are these emotions? So what can I get this person to do through using these things? And. What we tend to have is almost like a two person culture relationship because the empath will end up trying to do everything to please the narcissist and the narcissist, or step in.
[00:04:11] And and just basically use that person like. It’s like a ok, they want speed. They want their they really go in this state is to be massaged. They love to have that power. So they’ll go through the mental, emotional, sexual, financial power, and they’ll try and gain that in their relationship.
[00:04:30] There’s all these different things that tend to happen. And then you’ve obviously got the healing process afterwards when you’ve gone through a narcissistic relationship, which can be quite intense.
[00:04:40] Kat Khatibi: How can you tell if you’re in a healthy relationship before we start talking about narcissism and all of the things that could go wrong? When do you know you’re in a good, healthy relationship?
[00:04:50] Lily Walford: Yeah. So I actually developed a process called the four C’s and, my belief with the work I’ve done, the research I’ve done so far, a true relationship, a healthy relationship needs these four elements to be able to progress, be healthy and just be NFC, fantastic relationship.
[00:05:06] And you’ll probably find looking back at your old relationships, it was either missing 1, 2, 3, or even four of these elements. Now the first one is compatibility. So it’s okay, is this person moving in the same direction life as me? Did they follow the same life rules as me? Like manners or where you want to live or whether you want children or whether you want to get married or wherever it might be, then we’ve got consideration.
[00:05:32] Does that person actually consider me in their life? Do they consider me emotionally? Do they consider me in a way? I feel like I appreciated. The other one is communication. So does that, is that person able to communicate with me in an open, honest way, because that’s, again, super, super important. And the last one, and this one is very interesting and this one’s collaboration.
[00:05:59] So I don’t believe in anything called compromise. I know we hear compromise in relationships. Like I just can’t stand it what I love to hear is collaboration now, collaboration. Is where you’ve got two people who are accountable for their emotions, their actions, that words, all those different things.
[00:06:18] And then they come together and they collaborate together. For example We’ve just literally just moved house. So I’ve had the fun of putting the kitchen together, the, trying to find certain spaces for different things. And I put, for example, it’s just like a crazy example, but it would help you understand the collaboration pace.
[00:06:37] I put the mugs at the end of the kitchen. Catch-all the other side. And then I put the tea and coffee and this next to the cat. And my other house like, oh gosh, now I really can’t stand having the tea cup all to the other end of the kitchen. And I ended up picking them up, putting them in with the tea and coffee, and I’m like, oh, I can’t have the mugs with the tea, coffee and the same cupboard.
[00:06:59] That just feels wrong to me. So we both were in the mini dilemma. And basically we collaborate together, say, okay, we want the outcome to be where the mugs are close to the kettle. And also not in the same cupboard as the tin coffee. So just literally went in the cup of tea cups, went into the cupboard next to it.
[00:07:20] So this way we both got what we wanted. We collaborated together to both get what we wanted and what we need. It wasn’t that. Oh, okay. I’ll sacrifice. And I’ll have the tea and coffee and the mugs and the same thing, and I’ll feel really upset over it. It wasn’t that okay. We left the tea cups and the other side and he felt upset over it.
[00:07:38] It was finding that middle ground together. Basically it’s the four C’s. My compatibility consideration, communication and collaboration, I think they were brilliant. Four elements to have in any healthy relationship.
[00:07:52] Kat Khatibi: Now that single people are more likely to meet someone on a dating app than in person, what are some elements that they should add to their own dating profiles that might detour a narcissist or just someone that you should probably not go on a date with?
[00:08:09] Lily Walford: I think it’s quite funny. I think you’ll never ever be able to fully determine bad personalities away. And I think that’s really important to understand, but it’s the best way to protect yourself is to identify if someone is a narcissist or not and know what to do from that. And you can identify that from a profile.
[00:08:28] And I’ll share a little bit with that with you in a moment about that, but the interesting thing around a dating profile. Is be yourself and it was quite funny. Cause all of a sudden I had a client who, she had dibbled dabbled with the online dating and she was like, oh, I’m just not able to meet the right one.
[00:08:46] All I’m getting is these people just want to go out and party all the time. Okay, fine. Let’s have a low key profile. She goes to all my friends, sets it up for me. And it’s a picture of her, a bar and basically some sort of one-liner saying, oh, I love to go out and have a few drinks.
[00:09:01] And it was like, hi, and you’re wondering why you’re getting these types of people. That the best thing that you can possibly do is just be yourself and actually put your interest in there. And for example she loved history. She wasn’t a big drinker. In fact, she had a certain circumstance that meant she can’t drink anymore.
[00:09:19] And she wasn’t really a party goer. She’s got this profile that didn’t resemble her. We go ahead and fill out the history element, all the things that she genuinely really enjoyed. And that way she’s only getting the people who she was more aligned with contacting her. I had another lady and she was going to me well I’ve just trained to be a (?).
[00:09:37] I was going to put a picture of me with my dog collar on, should I do it? It’s yes, do it. You’re not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. But as long as you’re yourself, you’re going to be in a place where you’re going to be able to have the right type of messages coming in rather than 20.
[00:09:51] Hey, how you doing? I call them messages and trying to respond to all of those when there’s got no soul or anything to them. So I think that’s super, super important.
[00:10:02] Kat Khatibi: Are there any signs on dating profiles or maybe first online interactions that a woman should look out for?
[00:10:12] Lily Walford: Yes, there’s a few. So if we’re going to have a look at an online dating profile, one of the things that you can look out for is something called emotional range. So when you go through someone’s dating profile, have a look at that smile or their facial expression.
[00:10:30] If there’s no smile and it’s just a non-committed kind of look, nobody’s smiling. They’re not really frowning or anything, and it’s the same kind of expression all the way through the photos. Please avoid all costs because that will show someone who’s actually emotionally disengaged and potentially someone who’s dangerous.
[00:10:51] So where I’m at literally leave that profile well alone. If you’ve got someone who’s smiling in all of them great. And another great way to tell as well as if you put your hands over the nose and mouth of the person on the profile, see if the smiling with their eyes, because that’ll tell you if someone’s actually being true to themselves in the moment and true to themselves around friends and family, or whoever’s taking the photos.
[00:11:15] That could be a really great thing to, to have a look at. And the other thing I’d say is being really clear on what you’re looking for in a person and the type of life that you’re looking to have in a relationship. So if you’re looking for someone who loves to travel. Great look for portfolios, where they’ve been traveling to different places.
[00:11:34] If you’re someone who loves to Netflix and chill, don’t go for the person who goes to the gym all the time, because they’re probably not going to fit in with your lifestyle. So it’s really great to have a look at those bits and pieces. And in terms of the first interactions, have a look for the person who actually takes interest in what you do.
[00:11:54] Narcissist will tend to bring everything back to them in some sort of way. So grandiose narcissists someone who’s quite loves the status, the power and all those different things. They would be saying something along the lines of if he said, oh, I broke my ankle. I go that’s nothing, I broke my leg.
[00:12:11] They’ll bring it back to them in some kind of way. And then you’ve got a covert narcissist. Who tends to be a little bit understated who loves to go down the pity route in order to get there and idealation. So for example, the goal of Doug never be anything, any good at that. And they look for the underhanded kind of compliments to build themselves up.
[00:12:31] So they’re the two main characters to watch out for. And everyone does this to a certain degree, but if it is absolutely constant, Then there’s an issue if there’s no questions about you or no. No concerns about your wellbeing or no questions about your day. That’s where I’d start.
[00:12:47] Kat Khatibi: You brought up something that reminded me something.
[00:12:49] Okay. So when I was dating, I’m married for many years, but when I was dating, sometimes I would date guys and they would give me a compliment and I’d be like, oh, thank you. And they would get mad because they wanted me to be like, oh no, I’m not that pretty. They wanted that for some reason.
[00:13:07] Why is that?
[00:13:09] Lily Walford: Oh, that is interesting. So what you’d probably find there is you’ve probably got complimented by someone who’s insecure, but with they’re in their own identity, for whatever reason, then you were drawing in these people who were just really insecure and probably like curious about your confidence.
[00:13:26] So I would say it was something around that I wouldn’t say all people are like that, but it tends to be the type of people sometimes we draw in. So if I said to you, in terms of how did you meet them? How do you meet those types of people? How did you meet. The internet. Yes. And what we tend to find is as well in those kinds of circumstances you can meet people who aren’t, you’re not part of your normal social circles when it comes to beliefs and values.
[00:13:54] They’re probably not that well aligned to. This is why dating can be so hit and miss and why it’s so important to get your profile. What I tend to find with a lot of my clients is I’ll get them to actually meet people more organically, because it’s actually easier for people to date that way, despite all the different marketing tactics out there that online dating put out to people.
[00:14:16] Which is very interesting.
[00:14:17] Kat Khatibi: Let’s say you make it to the first date. What are some red flags or challenges you should give to test to see if they might be a narcissist? Because I have heard that you could ask them to watch another movie last minute, or if they mind to go to a different restaurant and see how they react.
[00:14:35] Not sure if that’s a good idea, but what are your thoughts?
[00:14:38] Lily Walford: Yeah, no, maybe because if you’ve got someone with autism, for example, that could throw them off big star. And that could actually show up, flare lots of different things. It, depending on the salt site type of character, if you’ve got a dangerous personality type who likes to be in control that can actually put you into the, in potential danger.
[00:14:59] So the way that I would personally. Tell if someone’s is a narcissist or not, it’s really simple. I would actually tell them a really sad story and I would watch their facial expressions as I tell that sound story. So most people, if I, if you’re getting told to send a story, you will be sad with me.
[00:15:17] Okay. What we’ll find witha narcissist is either the, they won’t show much emotion and they will change the topic really quickly. Oh, they will mimic the facial expression and it will be false. And there’s a way that you can tell if someone’s sharing a false facial expression. So when we are babies, we get taught empathy through copying our parents faces to express.
[00:15:41] They stick the tongues out and all those different things, the baby copies, and, that’s how we bring in that empathy. So where the genuine expression, it will stay on the face and fade gently off the face. If it’s not genuine, it will fall off the face like that. So what we do to give you an example of this, when you’ve been like a party or an event or something like that, and there’s someone you really don’t like, okay.
[00:16:07] And they look over you and you smile, you look at them and you smile back and they turn a face and that’s it. Bam, that smile has gone. That smile is absolutely vanished and that’s when we’re not being genuine. So if you’re telling a narcissist a really sad story, They will struggle to naturally transition that facial expression.
[00:16:27] Okay. If it’s not genuine. So that’s the way I would tell another way is narcissist will not take no for an answer. So if you were in a situation I personally, the way I would personally test this is if they said, okay, I want to take you out on Friday. I would turn around and say sorry, can’t do Friday night, but I’m free Saturday.
[00:16:52] And if they push for Friday night, no, can’t forget it because that will show something quite narcissistic. Someone who’s narcissist will really struggle to change the date at that point. And that’s where we want the safest times to be able to to change things and test that scenario out.
[00:17:10] Kat Khatibi: I like that, but now I’m worried because whenever someone tells me a sad story, I immediately try to change the subject because I’m a big crier and I don’t like crying because I get puffy.
[00:17:23] So I’m always like, can we do something else? So look at that squirrel.
[00:17:26] Lily Walford: The funny thing is you can still do things with something that’s happy. So if that person actually shares something like for example, if you said to them, do you know what? I just got a promotion today?
[00:17:36] If they actually share that excitement with you and smile with you. Great. If they can’t big, that’s a huge red flag. So is empathy almost measures whether it’s happy or whether it’s sad.
[00:17:49] Okay. So let’s say a woman is dating someone and they realize that they’re a narcissist, the person they’re dating, how can they safely end the relationship without the narcissist trying to get revenge?
[00:18:04] Yeah, this is really good, actually. So to give you a bit of background and how I actually ended up going into behavioral profiling and all that, I was single. I was on a dating app. And I was chatting to some online, you just start chatting to someone and it’s yeah, something’s not right.
[00:18:25] So you like gently end the conversation, you go to bed and you think, okay, that’s not going to hear from that person again. So they messaged me the following day. I didn’t bother responding. So would be like already ended that conversation. And the day after that, I ended up getting 12 flowers.
[00:18:43] So 12 roses from Interflora, real expensive bunch of flowers delivered to my address. Bear in mind this person. And he had my first name and my profile picture, and they’d managed to find out where I live. Okay. So this is someone that highly narcissistic going into the stalker rounds. I honestly don’t feel like the law or anything applies to them, which is borderline psychopathic.
[00:19:05] I had a history of being stalked by an ex boyfriend for five years. So I knew that this was like huge danger zone. Red flags know I had you in this same. And this is actually how I ended up getting into contact with Chase Hughes and Chase actually let me know how to disengage with this person safely.
[00:19:29] Cause I knew that this type of personality, if you blocked them, they would try and reach out to you in a different way. Bear in mind this person got my address and things like that. So I want us to be really careful. So the best way, if you’ve just got in if you just started dating this person or you’ve just started talking to him online and he wants to disengage.
[00:19:48] Be the best way to do this is to be the person that you wouldn’t want you to be. And you really have to understand the profiling elements. So our, we profiled this guy within six minutes or less. We understood his needs and fears from just a couple of messages and we tailor. Who you’d really be disliked and I portrayed those kinds of things.
[00:20:11] So I wasn’t rude to him. I wasn’t didn’t block him to do anything horrible, but he got bored. He realized that I wasn’t the person he wants me to be. And he disengaged within just a few messages. So it’s it. I wouldn’t say someone going off and do that and go and try it. No, definitely get the support to be able to do it safely because these personalities can be quite dangerous.
[00:20:34] It’s definitely with understanding the workings of it all, but that’s in a nutshell, how you would do that.
[00:20:43] Kat Khatibi: I love that you said that because I’m thinking back, there was one time where I met someone who was a very dangerous type of narcissist. He confided in me that he had broken into somebody’s house and stuff on their computers so that they would go to jail.
[00:20:57] Cause they did something stupid wrong to him. And this is early on when I started dating him and I’m like, okay, this person is nuts. How do I get rid of them? So I just became the most boring. Monotone person. Okay. Yeah, sure. That’s fine. I don’t really feel like doing anything. I just like sleep all day, whatever I could to be the complete boring person.
[00:21:21] And then he ended up cheating on me and then he told me he cheated on me and I’m like, oh I can’t date you because you cheated on me. And that’s like one of my only rules. And then he was expecting me to get angrier like care. And I was just like, yes, this is a good excuse to get out of it.
[00:21:38] Lily Walford: Yeah. It’s funny because we’re it’s analysis. It’s what we tend to find is if they feel that they’ve broken things off on their terms, they’re more likely to leave you alone. If you’re the one who leaves them, I can almost guarantee you’ll get stalks. She’ll get hounded, 90% of the time. So it’s always worth being able to do it in the safest possible way.
[00:22:03] Kat Khatibi: Funny story. He actually called me a year later on his wedding day and said, this is your last chance. If you’d like to go out with me or reconsider.
[00:22:12] Lily Walford: Wow.
[00:22:14] That is insane. And didn’t you?
[00:22:17] Kat Khatibi: That’s when I knew he was the one.
[00:22:19] Lily Walford: Oh, that’s funny.
[00:22:21] Kat Khatibi: So tell me some of the worst date stories that you’ve heard from your clients.
[00:22:28] Lily Walford: Oh gosh. Oh my goodness. Okay. Where do I start? I think I’ve got some pretty good ones. Sounds to be a case studies research.
[00:22:40] So it was one where I went on an awesome date. The guy had driven a fair few hours to come and take you on a date and to a lovely restaurant and had few huge glasses of wine.
[00:22:52] Went to guy and walk through town and I’m this year I’m really short. Okay. I’m like 5’2 I usually wear super high heels. This guy was super tall and I was like, oh didn’t realize not this tall. Look how short I am. I think it’s quite funny. Things do a bit tipsy. So took off my shoes to go look I look short.
[00:23:12] It took me a few minutes to realize he was just staring at my feet. I really awkwardly staring at my feet. Bet fair to say. It was the last day. I need you to their own, but it was like, okay, this is a bit too much. There was another one, okay. If it’s a guy, listen to this, just never ever do this.
[00:23:34] I had a couple of drinks with this guy. I think it was just went to a nice coffee shop or something. And, I have a great conversation. It was raining like crazy outside the psychology and I would get out of here. Do you want to go? And I’m going to get something sweet and I’m like, yeah, sure.
[00:23:53] I’d have my Ted baker coat on her gorgeous new coat, those coats that are just not meant to go. I had no umbrella had down. That’s usually, any little tiny bit of moisture it’s going to frizz and they would fly. He told me through in Chapman who told me through Chapman for 20 minutes in the pouring rain, when we passed some amazing places to go eat.
[00:24:16] And he went to one of the cheapest restaurants ever. I don’t know what the American equivalent is, but it was pretty close to McDonalad’s. Okay, I’m going to frickin tip because I was now drenched had, was just completely written into the point where I had to go to the bathroom and ring my hair out and then it gets to the end of that meal.
[00:24:38] And I pay for my half. He pays for his, oh no, one of those? And then he takes the receipt for the whole meal and goes and claims on expenses I know I was like, literally, yeah, dumbfounded . And the funny thing is he had a really good job.
[00:24:56] Yeah, it didn’t go in a second. He didn’t ask her second date. Funnily enough. I just said, no.
[00:25:01] Kat Khatibi: What are maybe some unconscious blocks that you find women have that prevent them from finding a relationship that they really want?
[00:25:10] Lily Walford: There’s a few. So obviously you can have things like the beliefs way oh, I’m just going to become the mad cat lady or dog lady or anything like that.
[00:25:17] But the things that, the thing that I’ve been really honing in on and focusing on is Now what people don’t realize is their childhood. Even if they have a great childhood actually influences their relationships in a huge way. Literally every part of your life is influenced by this.
[00:25:36] And if you go back and think about your childhood and think about the ways that you felt as a child, you will actually create the way that you felt as a child within your relationship. For example, if you were the people pleaser, few of the goody two-shoes child who did everything by, and he did everything perfectly, I can almost guarantee you brought that into your relationship.
[00:25:58] If you are someone who has been, if the victim, so it’s a challenge, you fell over, you bashed your knee and you’d cry for hours. The parents would have to console you. I can guarantee that you did, you, do you go on to do a version of that into your relationship? If you were someone who was praised for being crazy independent.
[00:26:17] Really strong. I can imagine that, going into relationship very independent, very strong. So it’s quite funny the way that this actually influences the way that people act in relationships. So it’s almost like a bit of a trauma pattern that kind of happens. So of trauma. If you go through trauma, you will replay the the trauma in an emotional way, in a new circumstance to try and heal.
[00:26:42] And we do the same with childhood. It’s okay, I’m trying to heal this patterns. Whether if you had, for example, a distant relationship with your father, you might even go for a guy who is a little bit emotionally distant and he try and heal that relationship through that relationship. So it’s very interesting when you have a look at the different dynamics at play that are so deeply ingrained at an identity level.
[00:27:10] So it tends to be a lot of healing that needs to be done in that place before anything else.
[00:27:17] Kat Khatibi: That’s interesting because I’m thinking back and I’m like, my relationship with my father was he was the stay at home. Dad. He wasn’t the caregiver. Who’s very nurturing. He’s very worried about me all the time.
[00:27:30] He’s one of those it’s don’t drive if it’s dark. Don’t drive. If it’s raining. He calls me all the time. All very worrywart. And then my husband, he doesn’t worry about me as much as my father, but he’s very nurturing. He always makes sure, I have my supplements and it gets me whatever I want and treats me like a princess.
[00:27:50] So I definitely do see that. Now that I have a daughter, I’m always telling my husband, make sure you treat me extra good, because that’s what she’s getting.
[00:27:59] Lily Walford: Yes. And it’s so true. It’s so true. You know what we see as a child, we end up saying, okay, that’s what healthy relationship is.
[00:28:08] So we take that on as well. But yeah, it’s super interesting. I love that. That say you’ve got a daughter and yes, by sounds of it, she’s going to have a fantastic relationship to.
[00:28:19] Kat Khatibi: Let us hope
[00:28:20] Lily Walford: For those teenagers.
[00:28:23] Kat Khatibi: Yes. My mother also says you were a spoiled brat and now Stephen, which is my husband, still lets you be a spoiled brat.
[00:28:30] And I’m like it worked out.
[00:28:32] Lily Walford: Love it.
[00:28:33] Kat Khatibi: Okay. So let’s talk about codependency because I have seen so many women who keep creating codependent relationships. And what are some warning signs that a woman might be becoming too clingy or codependent with their partner?
[00:28:51] Lily Walford: Yeah. I mentioned about collaboration in the very beginning of the four C’s.
[00:28:57] So this kind of goes into the codependency side of things, because what we find is when we go into codependency you try and control the whole of the relationship. It’s okay. I want to be completely responsible for absolutely everything. And that way I can feel safe and in control. It doesn’t work.
[00:29:15] So when I tend to find is there’s a few things with codependency that gets really interesting is number one it’s identity. Do you feel that you’re worthy of love? And again, going back into the childhood side of things, did you feel worthy of love as a child? What needs to be healed? And I love asking people in terms of, if you want to build up, you’ll your self love who’s worthy of love because when we ask ourselves that question, we realize everyone’s worthy of love.
[00:29:44] So when we actually realized that and realized that we’re denying ourselves, that then you can start to understand how to build that back into your life. The other side of this. Is with codependency is that needs aren’t being met for whatever reason. Now, what my belief is on with relationships has yes there are needs in a relationship, but there’s also needs within your own identity as well.
[00:30:12] So what is it that you’re needing? And what can you actually fulfill yourself? Because what we tend to find is when we have a look at light rom-coms and all these, the Disney movies, all these different things, there’s this undertone of being in a relationship will make you happy. Your partner must make you happy.
[00:30:31] It’s no, no one’s ever responsible for someone else’s happiness. It doesn’t work like that. So it’s understanding what are you accountable for and what are you afraid of in terms of avoiding and how can you feel like a whole person within yourself? Because often we find with first we’ll to work with someone, with them, codependency.
[00:30:50] If I said to them, go sit in a room on your own for a whole day. You’re not allowed to message anyone. That would be the worst thing that could possibly happen to them. And what we do is that we actually say, okay what is it the needs that you actually need within that? What needs to be healed? What can you learn to actually be able to fulfill yourself so you can feel whole and safe within yourself?
[00:31:16] And I think the last point as well, around codependency is the reason people go into codependency as well is that they’re afraid that their relationship’s going to break. And the funny thing is it’s not so much that the relationship’s going to break it’s understanding.
[00:31:30] Okay. What would they actually do if it did, what would they do if they got betrayed? What would they do if they got cheated on? What would they do if their relationship broke down? And that’s the bit that they need to hear. How can they learn that they are enough on their own and they don’t need that person.
[00:31:48] So when we actually start to have a look at healthy relationship dynamic, you find that if you’ve got to, if you’ve got a healthy couple, both people in that relationship don’t need each other, but they want each other. So when you’re in a relationship where you’re not needed there’s less pressure. If you’re in a relationship where you know, that person doesn’t need you, but they want to be with you.
[00:32:14] It’s empowering. It’s learning how to empower that dynamic. So you feel empowered within yourself. So you feel desired in that relationship and where you can actually work together in the best possible way.
[00:32:27] Kat Khatibi: Love that. So I remember back in. The day when I first started dating, I was a crazy codependent person, super jealous, super like unstable, because my first relationship he cheated on me and I just never quite got over it.
[00:32:45] So I was always a little bit too much. And to break that what I did, which I don’t know what you’d think about this, but let’s see, I dated eight guys at a time dated, not relationships dated eight guys at a time. So that way I could not hyper-focus on any one person. Or an overwhelm them too much, or be calling them like, or texting them or just being annoying.
[00:33:12] And it forced me to have my own life and to be so busy that I wasn’t worrying about them. And that made people like me so much more than when you’re, so in somebody’s business, What do you think?
[00:33:26] Lily Walford: Yeah, it’s interesting because what we basically have, and the practice is interesting is where you actually realize that you’re enough.
[00:33:36] And if she goes, okay, what actually happened? It’s okay, you went through this process of going, oh, I was cheated on, Don self-worth goes through and hits the floor. It’s okay, how can I build that back up again? And some people do that externally through dating multiple people at different times.
[00:33:51] Some people do the internal work for, I’ve worked with people aware of whatever suits you, but it’s like building yourself back up. And when you actually feel like, oh, I’m worthy. People want to be with me, people are showing more interest. You’re in a better place. And it is lots to do selfworth mean we’ve all, been in situations where we felt codependent because a lot of it tends to go from this place where we didn’t get our needs met.
[00:34:16] I’m like, oh gosh, how do I get these needs met now? How to, how do I feel then? How can I feel good about myself now? That’s what the codependency is the undercurrent questioning. So the fact that you found your way back to say, okay I am desired. I am fantastic. Everyone wants me.
[00:34:33] I can choose which person I date is empowering rather than, oh, I hope someone wants me. And that’s what you might have to achieve through dating or multiple people at the same time.
[00:34:46] Kat Khatibi: Yes. And when I tell people that I would date multiple people to get over my co-dependency or my focusing too much on a relationship, they go, oh, but that would make you a whore.
[00:34:57] Lily Walford: Oh gosh. Yeah. She know I’ve done it. I’ve dated multiple people. I think it’s good. It’s good to experience because I think it’s, it gives you more insight of what you do and what you don’t want. My thing was, I didn’t have a good memory. So I remember going on a date with one guy got asked, how’s your sister and said, I don’t have a sister.
[00:35:18] I’m like, oh shoot. It was like those awkward moments. So I think it’s like funny because for a guy, going out and dating multiple people, it’s expected. For a woman. It’s oh, you’re not allowed to do that. My thing is going to do what makes you happy because at the end of the day, the only person’s opinion, that really matters issue.
[00:35:40] Kat Khatibi: Exactly.
[00:35:41] So what are some ways that you can set boundaries in a relationship?
[00:35:46] Lily Walford: Oh, talk, I think the, yeah, there see the important things to be able to communicate, but I think as far as it comes back to understanding and asking yourself this question, Of what is it that you need to be the best version of you?
[00:36:02] And that’s so important. So a lot of people tend to lose themselves in relationships. They put their part in the first, all the time. They fall in the codependency patterns and then they go, oh my gosh, how did I lose who I am when they go through the breakout? The important thing for you to say is, okay, what is it that I made fun of me personally, I need my free time.
[00:36:22] I can’t be in my partner’s pocket all the time. The space, I love him to pieces, but I do need space. I also need to go up and have the space to go and through my own hobbies, I love the countryside. I go for walks in the countryside. I love having go and put my head in a good book, and unlearn it’s okay, these are the things that I need to be able to function as a human.
[00:36:43] So when it comes to boundaries, it’s putting stuff in place where you’re able to get everything that you need as a person. I think the other thing as well, people don’t realize about boundaries is it’s the way that you create trust within yourself. And that trust creates confidence within yourself. So thinks for example, if you’re saying I dunno, let’s say for example, That you want to go and have a bubble bath and if any part is going well, I will to watch so-and-so on the tele and I want you to come watch it with me.
[00:37:18] And you’re like, no, this is the bath that I need that bath. If you turn around and say, okay, I’ll come and watch it with you pro and a half my bath tonight or wherever it might be. You’re going to feel upset with yourself and what your internal dialogue is saying to you is that you don’t matter as much as.
[00:37:37] Your needs don’t come first. Your partner’s needs come first. And what that does is it breaks that trust within yourself that you can’t get what you. For example, if you had a friend go on, I need a favor, I need a favor. And you’re like, oh gosh, if I do this for, I’m going to be up until two o’clock in the morning and I’ve got work the next day and I’m going to be exhausted.
[00:37:58] And you don’t say no to that. Again, you’re breaking trust within yourself. It doesn’t necessarily have to be your partner. So it’s really understanding your needs. And I think one of the best ways as well, to really understand what you need as a person is listened to your body. Usually, if you get asked a question or get asked to do something, your body will freaking scream.
[00:38:23] No internally you will feel it. So what I would say is, before you answer anything to anyone, just stop and feeling. Just as she just stopped and just listened to your body and just see what it’s feeling and what it’s saying. And the often, if you go for that moment where you’re like, oh, I need to think about it.
[00:38:42] Usually the answer’s no. So I think that’s probably one of the best ways. And also remember that you’re able to do things in a nice way. ‘ cause I think people feel like boundaries. It’s great. No, I’m not doing that. Who do you think you are or whatever it might be. It’s not a tool it’s do you know what?
[00:38:59] I would love to be able to watch this with you, but I’m, I’ve been thinking about this bath all day. I’ve got a candles going and water’s already run. And I just really need that time for me right now that maybe we can watch something another time and that’s okay. You can do that in the nice, best possible.
[00:39:17] Kat Khatibi: Yes. I find that women, sometimes they’re so strong now that they forget you have to be easy to live with and tone matters.
[00:39:26] Lily Walford: Yes. Yes, exactly. And I think as well, especially with the corporate world and things like that, I think it’s taught women to rely more on their masculinity.
[00:39:40] And I think when we also don’t feel safe in a situation or safe within ourselves, we will force we’ll use more force in that situation. But if you’re in a place where you feel confident within yourself, where you trust yourself, where you feel that you can do something, you don’t need the force. You don’t need the, the push it comes naturally and that you’re worthy of it.
[00:40:04] So it doesn’t feel as awkward. It feels comfortable all of a sudden to be able to say no, and that’s enough.
[00:40:12] Kat Khatibi: So what can a woman do if she finds herself repeating the same relationship issues over and over again?
[00:40:21] Lily Walford: Ah, I love this question because it happens. Again, it comes back to childhood. What are you trying to fix?
[00:40:29] Time for people you attracting in, you attracting the emotionally unavailable are you attracting the commitment phobes? Understand what the personality type is that you’re actually connecting with. And also be honest with yourself. What are you finding attractive about? For me I went through a little phase of being attracted to narcissistic narcissists, because again, they have this amazing charisma.
[00:40:54] I usually find them in leadership positions. They mimic the alpha male qualities. So it becomes so attractive and it’s okay, that’s strong. And also they love the love. And one of my things, it’s like words of affirmation. You can tell me how brilliant I am any freaking day of the week, and I will love it.
[00:41:11] And they’re great at doing that, especially at the beginning of the relationship. So when that, even tech going going through what I needed as a person back then was like I need to know that I was special. I needed to know that I was fantastic because I didn’t feel that on my own.
[00:41:27] I also found that they were very emotionally unavailable growing up had a dad who was very emotionally unavailable. So it’s like looking for what we were finding familiar and also looking at what we need. And also looking at what we fear. So for example the fear in that situation was fear of not being loved or fear of not having a long-term relationship.
[00:41:50] If he’s got a fear like that running in the background, what are you going to settle for? If you’re afraid of that fear coming true. So it’s like suddenly becoming comfortable with your fears and actually exploring them. It’s okay let’s have a look at this fear of being alone. What would you rather be in the wrong relationship or would you rather be alone?
[00:42:10] What’s the likelihood of you actually being alone? What’s the likelihood of you not being able to meet the one? What type of person do you want to meet in person? How could you go and meet that person? Because from those phase, we can start to be proactive as. So it’s really diving into the core essence of what’s happening below the surface, rather than actually going.
[00:42:30] Okay. What’s the pattern. That’s trying to talk ourselves out of that pattern and change it because if we do things on more conscious basis like for example oh, okay. I just go for the emotionally unavailable. I just won’t do that again. If you don’t do the deep work underneath it, you’ll carry on going into those patterns again and again.
[00:42:49] It’s so important to do the core inner work.
[00:42:52] Kat Khatibi: So do you feel that men are ever really not available or a commitment phobic or is this just another go-to that women say when a man doesn’t want to be with them in particular?
[00:43:06] Lily Walford: There’s a few things. And I was like, I, this one says a few things. So number one, we were talking about compatibility and the 4 C’s.
[00:43:14] Why would you emotionally invest in something that wasn’t gonna, which he didn’t feel was going to be long-term or wasn’t going to fulfill you for the long term? We wouldn’t emotionally invest in it. So there can be this element of this person. Isn’t who I need them to be in order for that, for me to be with that person long term.
[00:43:32] And the other side is with men in particular, it actually relies a lot on the relationship they have with their mother. And it doesn’t mean that if they have a great relationship with their mother, they’re safe to be with it doesn’t mean if they have a bad relationship with their mother, they’re not good to be with.
[00:43:52] It’s more about the space for them to be able to have their own identity. There’s a fantastic book that’s been written. I can’t remember the author, but it’s a book called When He’s Married to Mom. And it actually goes into the different levels of mother-son enmeshment. And what basically happens is that the son will lose his identity within the mother.
[00:44:19] So it doesn’t have the space to be himself. And what happens is different levels of this, but the main symptoms of that term of those types of relationships is being commitment phobic, being an addict, whether that’s alcohol, whether that’s porn, whether that’s sex. And then there’s also, sometimes you get the Peter pan kind of men from it where they just want to be a child all the time.
[00:44:41] And you also get people like the cheaters and things like that as well. And it’s very interesting when you start to understand where those behaviors have come from and what they actually need in terms to be to be able to feel safe, to be able to commit and be in a loving relationship is quite a journey.
[00:45:01] So there’s the answer is yes, there’s certainly those guys out there. But also look at the whole situation of what you need. And also if you’re compatible as well, was that relationship actually meant to be, or did that person actually need to be able to deal with a lot of. Stuff that’s going on in the background.
[00:45:21] So they weren’t ready to be in the relationship with you, which doesn’t mean it was your fault. It just means that they needed to work through their stuff. And you don’t need to be burdened with that.
[00:45:31] Kat Khatibi: And how can a woman tell if her date or her boyfriend is lying to her?
[00:45:38] Lily Walford: Yes. So going back to the behavioral profiling elements, there’s a few things that you can do in order to read behavior.
[00:45:46] So every time we lie, we get an adrenaline spike. And when we get that adrenaline spike, our body has to release it in some sort of way. Okay, this is just genuine facts. And this is something that been taught by Chase Hughes. Been literally hooked up to a lie detector test and taught how to forge one and all sorts and how to read people better than a polygraph machine.
[00:46:09] So one of the things that you want to do, if you want to get a really good read on someone is you want to read in class. So when someone says, oh, the person was looking away when they were saying something that doesn’t mean anything at all, you can’t just read one behavior. So I’m going to tell you about five different behaviors.
[00:46:28] And if you see three of those behaviors being exhibited, as someone says, something that could indicate that person is telling a lie. But to give you some context, it’s about 200, maybe even more different behaviors that you can look out for in terms of if someone was telling a lie. So the first one that you want to have a look at is something called blink, right?
[00:46:50] So on our fridge, we blink 12 blinks every minute. If it is, if it increases. It shows that we’re not interested in the conversation anymore. It’s whoa, checked out the topics, rubbish the topics there’s or whatever it might be. If we’re really engaged, as the blink rate will really slow down. But if we’re also lying that adrenaline kicks in and it will actually start to increase.
[00:47:15] Okay. So if we’re relying on. The next one is something called lit compression. So when we tell a lie or if we’re going to hold something back emotionally, we will press our lips together. So we’ll end up with a situation where for example, if someone says someone starts a new job and he said, okay, how’s it going?
[00:47:37] And they go yeah it’s going great. And they compress the lips together at the end. It’s yeah, they’re holding something back. They’re holding something back. And according to the guy called Greg Hartley, it’s usually something that’s emotional. Another one is when someone touches their nose. So if someone touches a nose or feels that they have to which it, that can actually indicate that their lying and it can be a stress indicator.
[00:48:03] Another one. It’s district digital flex station. So if someone’s PA my hands are extended, that shows that they’re happy. They’re they’re reasonably relaxed. If they’ve got their hands on their fingers, relaxed, stretched out was absolutely fine. If they’re in a situation where they feel uncomfortable, their hands will go into fit.
[00:48:25] So then even if it was like a slight little retraction, it will show that person’s lying in some sort of way, or, being under some sort of stress we’ve got blink rate lit compression, shuttle, flection. We’ve had the nose touch, think of one more to share with you.
[00:48:41] So the other one is to have a look at the breathing, are they breathing from their chest or are they breathing from the stomachs? So if we’re lying, will notice that shift coming up to a chest instead. Okay. Because again, we’re trying to bring in more oxygen, but if we’re in that kind of heightened state, we’re bringing it in just to our chest to be able to breathe quickly.
[00:49:06] So let’s say that you’re on a date and you go, oh, do you know what I want? I want a long-term relationship. And the guy turns around and goes, oh yeah, me too. Increased blink rate scratches, nose, and compresses lips at the end of the sentence, from reading those three behaviors that he’s probably not telling the truth.
[00:49:28] And you can see that rather than going through the rose tinted glasses go. Oh, he says he does. That’s great. So you’ve probably saved yourself three to six months of entering the wrong relationship. This is how important this stuff is.
[00:49:42] Kat Khatibi: What are your thoughts on a woman moving in with a man before marriage?
[00:49:47] Lily Walford: If she knows she wants a traditional marriage and family.
[00:49:52] Yeah, I think it becomes, it comes from preference. It’s I was still saying, I don’t believe in compromise. I believe in collaboration. It’s ask yourself, what is it that you want? You want to move in? If you want a traditional wedding, traditional marriage that, does it feel good to you?
[00:50:07] If it doesn’t. Great. If it do it. And I think we over-complicate things for society, a cycle society says this, or we should be doing that or expectations of certain people or our own expectations that you force in ourselves is simple. If it works for you and it feels good. Great.
[00:50:26] Go and do it, as long as it’s not hurting anyone else, I think that’s the main thing.
[00:50:33] Kat Khatibi: Wonderful. Is there anything you’d like to leave the audience with before we go?
[00:50:38] Lily Walford: Yeah, I say, if you’re going to take anything from this conversation, literally just understand how important your identity is.
[00:50:46] And to give you a few examples of like scientific studies. When we’re talking about releasing things from childhood, preventing these patterns from a, relationship patterns and dating the same type of person again and again, and always and feeling secure in a relationship or going in codependency or whatever, it might be.
[00:51:04] It all revolves around your identity. Now, there’s a saying before you can have, you must become, so it’s understanding who are you becoming as a person? Because that’s going to influence any, everything can life, your success, your relationships, your enjoyment, your life fulfillment, whatever it might be.
[00:51:25] And the studies behind it. I, for example, you’ve seen those programs where you have people who’ve lost, like over a hundred pounds in weight. How many of them go ahead after losing all that weight? And they put it on that. Again, another scientific study. Those like a loop. There’s a study following millionaires who won over a million pounds within five years, 68% ofthen were bankrupt. And it’s because they hadn’t become that person that they needed to be able to enjoy that. Because if we’re not that person, if we don’t become more of who we are, we self-sabotage, we end up ruining things. We ended up going back to what’s comfortable from our identity, from when we were child.
[00:52:09] So super important to him. So who you becoming and what you need to be able to get.
[00:52:13] Kat Khatibi: So tell everyone where they can find you online, which social media platforms you’re most active on and how everyone can work with.
[00:52:22] Lily Walford: Awesome. Yeah. So definitely check out the website. So love with intelligence.com is actually a brilliant training on that and the desired woman approach.
[00:52:31] And that actually has the tagline before you can have, you must becomes, we actually dive into a lot of those elements of building up your identity to be able to enjoy the relationship that you actually want and desire and deserve. And we’re also on Facebook. We’re also on YouTube and also LinkedIn and Instagram as well.
[00:52:51] Kat Khatibi: Thank you so much for being with us here today.
[00:52:54] Lily Walford: Oh thank you, I’ve really enjoyed it. So thank you for having me.